June 12, 2023

MINUTES MVUDSS BOARD MEETING 6/12/23 

IN ATTENDANCE:  S. Baranick (SB); R. Barnhart (RB); J. Hansell (JH); E. Rushing (ER); G. Stevenson (GS)
GUEST:  H. Alberts (HA)

1. Action Items

a. JH – modify MVUDSS Rule 7. Late Roster Arrival Discussion
This item was an open item from the 2/15/23 Board meeting.  Prior to this Board meeting, JH emailed Attachment A to this document for Board review.  Attachment A depicts: existing language for Rule 7, Late Roster Arrival; proposed changes to Rule 7; and, for reference only, existing Rule 8 Pickup Players, which has a tangental relation to Rule 7.  JH read/discussed each of the changes to Rule 7.   JH motioned, and GS seconded that the Board approve the changes to Rule 7 as indicated on Attachment A in red font and double strike through.
Motion passed 5-0.

JH will provide SB with revised Rule 7 language for inclusion on league website.
(Subsequent to the Board meeting, JH provided SB with revised Rule 7 language.)
Item closed.

b. Make safety bag plays safer (new SSUSA rule for 2023)
SSUSA Rule: If a throw or play pulls the fielder into foul territory, allow him to touch the safety base to put out the batter-runner.  This item was discussed in the 2/15/23 Board meeting and centers around SSUSA changes that were approved in their January 2023 Rules Committee session, regarding the putout play at first base from a safety perspective.
The Board agreed, at the 2/15 Board meeting that JH  would draft language that is more realistic in its application. 

Prior to this Board meeting, JH emailed Attachment B on this topic.  Attachment B contained: 

• • the actual SSUSA language from the January 2023 Rules Committee session; 
  • Section 8.4 (1) from the 2019-2020 SSUSA Rule Book (which, until only very recently, was the operating SSUSA rule document) showing the one portion of a sentence which was deleted based on the revised rule change; 
  • the revised rule now in the new 2023-2024 Rule Book showing, in bold, the 1 1/2 sentences which were added based on the revisions; 
  • the MVUDSS rule on this subject; and, possible compromise language for the Board to consider adopting on this subject.  

JH told the Board that he spent considerable time since the 2/15/23 Board meeting reviewing the revised language that was approved by SSUSA in the January 2023 Rules Committee meeting and the resulting changes which were, actually, incorporated into the revised rule shown in the new 2023-2024 Rule Book.  He indicated that what was approved in January was not fully incorporated into the new rule, and that the new rule was confusing and would be difficult to judge.  JH shared with the Board that he did develop possible language change on this subject for the Board to consider.  JH finally told the Board that he did not think the Board should adopt any of the changes, including the compromise language which he prepared, and that we should retain the very simple existing MVUDSS Double Base Rule 18, which JH read to the Board.  JH also indicated that, not withstanding not adopting any of the changes, formal votes should be taken on each item in order to finally reconcile each item.

JH motioned and ER seconded that the Board adopt the revised SSUSA Rule 8.4 (1) language from the 2023 SSUSA Rules Committee meeting regarding safety bag rules as shown in Attachment B.
Motion failed 0-5.  

JH motioned and ER seconded that the Board adopt the revised SSUSA Rule 8.4 (1) language from the new 2023-2024 SSUSA Rule Book as shown in Attachment B.
Motion failed 0-5.  

JH motioned and SB seconded that the Board adopt the proposed “compromise language” on the safety bag issue as shown in Attachment B.
Motion failed 0-5.

JH to provide SB with clarified MVUDSS Rule 18 Double Base Rule.
(Subsequent to the Board meeting, JH provided SB with revised Rule 18 language.)
Item closed.

c. RB – Get Fall roster from North County/Don Chandler — RB spoke to Chandler who indicated they may play in the Fall 2023 season with the roster with which they ended in the Spring 2023 season.  RB told Chandler to submit a roster.
Item remains open.

d. GS – FileZilla problem for updating Archives page on our league website. — DONE
Item closed.

e. SB – Contact: Darin Rossi; re. umpiring full-time — No, DONE, 2/25

Ruben Escobedo; re. moving from pool to Red Raiders (E)/Joe Jennings — Yes, DONE, 2/16
Hector “Rico” Terreforte; re. joining the league – 61, hasn’t played in 2 years, coaches a senior team, doesn’t appear to be a Monday player
— recommended Tues/Thurs league, DONE, 2/16.

Item closed.

2. 2022 Fall Season Closeout

Balance:
$241.61 – from 2/15/23 meeting
– $50.11 – add’l $50.11 from original fall awards estimate
———–
$191.50

Item closed.

3. Bob Kapeller Memorial Tournament 2023 (BKMT6) Closeout

a. Net Profit: $2,850

b. Lessons Learned 

(1) Recommend continuing with HR Derby if weather permitting and at least 13 players sign up.
(2) Sun problem – no games after 2:00 pm on Dodger if possible.
(3) SB can’t play and run the tournament.

Without vote, but by unanimous consensus of the Board, going forward, the BKMT will not hold a home run derby unless we have a sufficient number of participants such as participated 2-4 years ago.  At its peak, we earned approximately $400 for charity.  Unless we can come very close to that, or beyond, in future years, it’s not worth the effort.
Item closed.

4. 2023 Spring Season Closeout

Projected Balance:
 –     $73.29 – from 2/15/23 meeting
+  $130.00 – 4 more league fees:

Ruben Escobedo moved from pool to Red Raiders (E)/Joe Jennings
Dennis McCoy added to Marooned (A)/Glenn Stevenson
Dan Olivas (PIF)
Ed Carroll  ($25 pro-rated)

–   $140.00 – 4 less league fees:

Jack Hays dropped out
SC has 10, not 12, players
Bob Herrera (NO CHARGE, didn’t play)

–        $5.50 – MVUDSS donation to bring 4P4P donation check up to $2,850
–       $50.11 – add’l $50.11 from original fall awards estimate
+     $90.00 – 3 less umpire fees (Steve umpired 2 games on 5/1, 6/5; playoff game forfeit on 5/8)
–     $88.20 – renewed the security certificate for the website
–      $26.10 – add’l $26.10 from original spring awards estimate
+  $200.00 – loan from Steve
—————
.      $36.80

Item closed.

5. Website
The MVUDSS website was hacked.  GS implemented a 2-factor authentication for the admin page.
The website, although usable, is in process of being rebuilt.  Glenn installed a new server – 12 terabytes.
League data may be using up to 1 terabyte.  Glenn had to rewrite Player Finder.
Item remains open.

6. Purchasing a New Wagon
Like Ed Rushing’s Wagon.  See Attachment 1.  Cost for ER wagon $170+.  $ for the purchase of a new wagon will have to be accounted for in the 2023-2024 Fall season budget and approved by the Board.  ER will bring the wagon to BLD to ensure that the wagon, when folded, will fit in the storage container along with all the other equipment.
Item remains open.

7. Purchasing Softballs from Jerry Smith, SSUSA
Used by SSUSA. See Attachment 2.  The Board discussed the need for the league to purchase useable balls.  The balls pictured in Attachment 2 are balls used in SSUSA tournaments and in Tuesday/Thursday league were, briefly discussed without any conclusion.  The Baden Fire was brought up, but not a great deal of enthusiasm was expressed.  The Stote Microcell (44/375), which is used in Tuesday-Thursday, was discussed.  JH stated that the ball responds extremely well and appears to be durable.  Price through Dan Haveron is $73/doz.  SB mentioned that the NCS Dudley 44/525 has received positive input from players.  SB indicated that these can be purchased for as low as $49/doz.  SB indicated that he will, shortly, be getting a shipment of these balls, and will get a doz. of these balls to RB/GS who can test them at BP.
(Subsequent to this meeting, SB received a supply of the Dudley 44/525.  SB provided RB with 10 of these balls to try out at BP.)

Our purchase of new balls, and interspersing used Rock balls, over the past 18 months has not worked from a variety of perspectives. JH indicated that the Board needs to be a little more prudent before ordering new balls.
(Subsequent to the Board meeting JH sent an email to the Board providing them with an overview of the purchase/usage of balls over the past 18 months.  This email is included as Attachment C.) 

8. Open items from previous meetings
GS – update Player Finder to include local players having byes.  SB to send GS a dummy schedule.
(Subsequent to the Board meeting, SB sent GS a dummy schedule.)
Item closed.

9. Forfeit Fee Policy
Gold Standard (5/8), North County (5/22) forfeits.  SB discussed the circumstances surrounding these two forfeits.  The Board agreed that SB/JH would attempt to draft a policy directed at the issue of a team forfeiting.
Item remains open.

10.  Rule 22 – Tournament
The forfeits identified in 9. above occurred during the Spring 2023 double-elimination tournament.  The Board spent considerable time discussing all of the attendant problems associated with attempting a double-elimination tournament.  The unanimous consensus of the Board is that the league should never, again, hold a double-elimination tournament.  JH motioned and SB seconded that Rule 22 be revised to remove mention of a double-elimination tournament and to further correct Rule 22 language as necessary.
(Subsequent to the Board meeting, JH provided SB with revised Rule 22 language.)
Item closed.

JH to provide revised Rule 22 language for inclusion on the league website.
Item remains open.

11. 2023 Fall Season

a. Of the 72 Spring ‘23 players:

66 returning, 4 MAYBE, 1 POOL (Jennings), 1 TBD (McLaughlin)
4 former dropouts returning – Frank Camou, Dan Olivas, Tel Preszler, Terry Shinn
1 new player – Billy Loard/Kamikaze 55AAA

Other possible players  (5):

3 MAYBE – Lou Bratcher, Bill Newman, Tom Olsen
2 TBD – Jerry Smith, Mike Trusty

b. Issues – # of teams, managers, current non-Monday league players

JH indicated to the Board while not trying to sound melodramatic, he believes that this could be the swan song for the Monday league.  We had extreme difficulty getting managers for the 2022-2023 season.  Rainouts and rescheduling complicated things for managers.  The double-elimination tournament was extremely difficult for managers trying to get players.  All of this, arguably, left a bad taste with managers/potential managers.  JH does not believe any of the existing managers will return, and even though we may have fewer (possibly 6) local teams, and hence will need fewer managers, JH has no confidence that players will step up to manage.  After much discussion, the Board asked JH to draft an email communication, from the Board, to all players addressing this issue.
Item remains open.

c. Player draft – Monday, August 7 – SB made a tentative schedule based on 8 teams (6 local, 2 out of area).

d. Start of season – Monday, August 14 – does not include playing on Labor Day, unless that date becomes available.  League season would end first week in December.

e. Projected Balance: $200.94 (assuming 8 teams, $55/player league fee, new softballs, new wagon)

League fee, purchasing of softball and the purchase of a new wagon will have to be approved by the Board.

The projected balance will change if Sammy’s Cafe (SC) drops out and we’re down to 7 teams. Dan Gutierrez (DG) is stepping down as manager.
(Subsequent to the Board meeting, SB spoke to Ray Robles (SC) who indicated that there will not be a manager to replace DG, SC will not be returning, and he did not believe any of the SC players will enter the Monday draft.  While this is disappointing news, the Board wishes to thank all of the players on Sammy’s Cafe (SC), and its precursor, Brandon’s Diner (BD), for their participation in, and support of, the Menifee Valley Upper Division Senior Softball (MVUDSS) league for over ten years.  They first came into MVUDSS on 2/18/13 as BD, and over time, “morphed” into SC.  Sammy’s, and their players, played an instrumental role in helping the “Monday” league achieve the success it has so dutifully earned.  The Board also extends a special thanks, and recognition, to Dan Gutierrez, who has managed BD/SC through this entire period, and who has been a staunch supporter of MVUDSS.  It takes a special character/person to manage anything for over ten years, no less a team of senior softball players.  The Board wishes Dan much success going forward in spending time with his grandkids and any other endeavors.  With the same team, we’ve had representation from a diner and from a cafe.  Who knows, maybe when Dan gets restless, he can have a third iteration….maybe Dan’s Eatery.  Thanks Sammy’s!)

12. Courtesy Runner

JH put this item on the agenda as a result of a recent play on 6/7 during the double-elimination playoffs in which a player (player A) on the team at bat, who had been designated as a courtesy runner for the runner on first base (player B) who had been walking toward second, secured/touched the bag prior to player B touching the bag.  The play was appealed and the out was upheld.  This was the correct call based on SSUSA rules.  

JH took the position while this is an SSUSA rule, he stated that there was no baseball/softball/practical reason for something that is not an aspect of the game that is elemental/critical to the game.  One can’t argue that obtaining a base is critical to the SSUSA game in that they change their rules a number of years ago to first allow hit/sit for the person hitting a home run, and subsequently allowed runners on base to sit (not required to round the bases) on a home run.  So the concept of acquiring a base is, in fact, not inviolate.  JH offered that using an argument that such indiscretion on the part of a courtesy runner happens infrequently, therefore there is no need to change the rule.  JH stated that if such a meaningless rule even impacts one game, that’s one game too many.

As a result of the above,  JH prepared a proposed Monday league Courtesy Runner rule (Attachment D).  JH read the four sentences comprising the rule to the Board.  JH motioned and GS seconded that the Board approve the proposed Courtesy Runner rule as outlined in Attachment D.  Discussion ensued.

RB took the position that since the league is a tournament caliber league and, for the greater part, follows SSUSA’s rules, such that we should not change this rule.  RB further pointed out that changing this rule could make it confusing to players when they subsequently play in a tournament.  JH asked RB if the play in question could have impacted the results of the game (RB played in the game in question).  He indicated that it could have.  JH repeated many of the points he made above, and RB the same with his points.  After some discussion, GS asked if the Board could not vote, now, on the motion.  He indicated that he wanted to have time to think about his position as he understood the points made by both sides.

The motion will remain open until the next Board meeting.  Item remains open. 

 

ATTACHMENT  A

6-9-23

7.  Late Roster Arrival: (EXISTING MVUDSS RULE LANGUAGE)

a. If a team is playing with all roster players, a late arrival roster player must be added to the bottom of the batting order.
b. If a team is playing with pickup players, a late arrival roster player must replace the pickup player substituting for him or added to the bottom of the batting order if no pickup player is substituting for him.
Reminder: All teams may “pick up” players until they reach 12. 

c.  Pickups must be identified on the lineup card prior to the start of the game and cannot be added after the game starts. 

7.  Late Roster Arrival:  (PROPOSED RULE CHANGES)

a. If a team is playing with all roster players, a late arrival roster player must be added to the bottom of the batting order.  In such a situation, the late arrival roster player may be added to the game at any time.

b. If a team is playing with pickup players, a late arrival roster player must replace the pickup player substituting for him, and will assume the batting order position of the pickup player leaving the game or added to the bottom of the batting order if no pickup player is substituting for him.  (Previous is deleted because covered in item 7.a.)  In such a situation, the late arrival roster player may be added to the game at any time.
Reminder: All teams may “pick up” players until they reach 12. 

c.  Pickups must be identified on the lineup card prior to the start of the game and cannot be added after the game starts.  (The prior sentence needs to be deleted based on recent change to pick-up player rule.)  When known, pickup players must be identified on the lineup card prior to the start of the game.  If the game has started, and a player is picked up based on the applicable criteria in Rule 8, the pickup player’s name will not be required to be added to the lineup card.

—————————————————————————————————————————-

(BELOW IS INCLUDED FOR REFERENCE ONLY)

8.  Pickup Players – (EXISTING MVUDSS RULE LANGUAGE)

b.  Picking up players during a game 

(1) If a manager starts a game with 11 or 12 players, and loses a player at any time during a game, the manager may select any available player whose rating is equal to or higher (lower-rated player), to replace the lost player.
(2) If a manager starts a game with 11 or 12 players, and loses a player at any time during a game but chooses not to replace that player if that player is rated 5 or 6, then during the same game loses a second player rated 1-4, the manager cannot replace that second missing player.
(3) If a manager starts a game with 10, or fewer players, and loses a player at any time during a game, the manager forfeits the right to pick up a replacement player under these revised rules. The exception to this will be if a manager starts a game with 10 or fewer players, but identifies a replacement player on the lineup card with an appropriate rating, he may pick up a replacement player.

 

ATTACHMENT B

6-9-23

FROM 2022 SSUSA RULES COMMITTEE SESSIONS – JANUARY 8-10 2023

 9. Make safety bag plays safer
RECOMMENDATION: If a throw or play pulls the fielder into foul territory, allow him to touch the safety base to put out the batter-runner.

MOTION to adopt ASA/USA rule: “On any force out attempt from the foul side of first base, the defense and the batter-runner may use either the white or contrasting color portion of the base. On an errant throw pulling the defense off the white portion of the base into foul ground, the defense and the batter-runner can use either the white or contrasting color portion.” And separately, the rule says: “When the defensive player uses the foul portion of the double base, the batter-runner can run in fair territory when the throw is coming from the foul side of the base, and if hit by the thrown ball, it is not interference. If intentional interference is ruled, the runner is out.”  MOTION PASSED 11-0          

2019-2020 SSUSA Rule Book

1. • BATTER-RUNNER REACHING FIRST BASE Each batter must reach first base without the aid of a courtesy runner. A double bag shall be used at first base, the double portion of the bag being in foul territory abutting first base. If there is a play on a batter-runner going to first base, the batter-runner must touch some portion of the double bag extending into foul territory. He will be called out if he fails to do so, except if, in the umpire’s judgment, the batter-runner is avoiding a collision. The batter-runner simultaneously touching both portions of the double bag is permitted. This is NOT an appeal play. Important: The defending player has only the white base, in fair territory, to make the putout; his touch of only the bag in foul territory will not result in an out. Once the batter-runner reaches first base, the double base shall be treated as one base and the fielder or runner may use either portion.  (NOTE:  THE STRIKETHOUGH IS BASED ON THE REVISED RULE FROM JANUARY 2023 RULES COMMITTEE MEETING, AND THE ONLY ITEM REMOVED FROM THE 2019-2020 RULE. THE BOLD BELOW WAS ADDED IN ITS PLACE)

2023-2024 SSUSA Rule Book – REVISED SSUSA RULE

8.4(1) • BATTER-RUNNER REACHING FIRST BASE
Each batter must reach first base without the aid of a courtesy runner. A double bag shall be used at first base, the double portion of the bag being in foul territory abutting first base. If there is a play on a batter-runner going to first base, the batter-runner must touch some portion of the double bag extending into foul territory. He will be called out if he fails to do so, except if, in the umpire’s judgment, the batter-runner is avoiding a collision. The batter-runner simultaneously touching both portions of the double bag is permitted. This is NOT an appeal play. Important: The defending player has only the white base, in fair territory, to make the putout unless the play (such as an errant throw) pulls the fielder into foul territory. On any force out attempt from the foul side of the base, the defense and the batter-runner may use either portion of the double-base. Once the batter-runner reaches first base, the double base shall be treated as one base and the fielder or runner may use either portion.

MVUDSS – CURRENT
18. Double Base Rule: The “intent” of the SSUSA Double Base Rule 8.4(1) is correct, but is confusing and contradictory as stated in the SSUSA Rule Book. Below is our league’s clarification of that rule: “A defender can record an out at first base if his foot touches ONLY the white base or a portion of the white and orange bases. If his foot touches ONLY the orange base, no out will be recorded.”

(Possible Compromise Language:
Only in the case of an errant throw which pulls the defense off the white portion of the base into foul ground, the defense may use all of the white base, or a portion of the safety base and the white base to make a putout (if uses a portion of the safety base, must, also, touch a portion of the white base).  In all other cases, the defense has only the white base in which to record a put-out.  This is solely an umpire judgement call.  The batter-runner can use either base or a portion of both bases. )

 

ATTACHMENT C

From: Joe Hansell joeshirley@roadrunner.com Subject: Fwd: Monday League: A Recent History of our Balls Date: June 14, 2023 at 4:28 PM To:

From: Joe Hansell <joeshirley@roadrunner.com> Subject: Monday League: A Recent History of our Balls Date: June 13, 2023 at 8:59:59 PM PDT To: Steve Baranick <stephenbaranick@gmail.com>, Ron Barnhart <lafman24@aol.com>, Ed Rushing <edwardjrushing@gmail.com>, Glenn Stevenson <gastevenson@me.com>

Sure. Pun intended! But, below reflects the recent history of our ball purchases & uses.

12/20/21 Board meeting:

• 12 doz Rock 44/400’s ordered prior to meeting for Spring 2022 season *Major hue/cry when used.
• Used about 3 doz & stopped.
• Began using “used” “orig.” rocks *Would sell the remaining 9 doz left

2/18/22 Board meeting *Bought 2-3 doz 44/375 Rocks (or similar) for BKMT HR Derby

7/8/22 Board meeting *Have enough used Rocks to get through Fall 2022 season

7/15/22 Board meeting *Disposed all the 44/400 Rocks

8/1/22 Board meeting

• Motion passed to use “used” Rocks for Fall season failed *Motion passed to buy 4 doz. Dudley Thunder ZN 47/525 to be used for 2 week trial for Fall 2022

9/30/22 Board meeting

• Players not happy with Dudley’s *Agreed to stop using Dudley’s and purchase Rock 44/375 from Red Simmons & use “used” Rock to balance out need *Purchased 4 doz Rocks from Simmons on 10/3/22

12/9/22 Board meeting

• Board agrees to purchase, from SSUSA, 9 doz Rock 44/3756 doz for league, for Spring 2023 season; 2 doz for R. Sikes, 1 doz for BKMT HR Derby (actual “usage” of balls may have changed from original intended use) *$80/doz *Mfg in Vietnam *Scrape/rip easily *Many user complaints *Used “used” Rock balls as back-up

2/15/23 Board Meeting *No mention of balls *Last Board meeting until meeting on 6/12/23

6/12/23 Board meeting

• Discussed balls *NEED TO MAKE DECISION ON WHAT BALLS WE WILL USE GOING FORWARD.
• WE NEED TO ENSURE WE DON’T MAKE THE MISTAKES WE MADE ABOVE

 

ATTACHMENT D

6/12/23

Courtesy Runner

• A courtesy runner is to be announced by the team on offense, including the base to which the courtesy runner is to assume, and is to be acknowledged by the umpire.  
• A courtesy runner can replace an existing runner anytime the ball is dead, and irrespective of the batter having “received” a pitch.
• A batter/runner and/or runner is not required to advance to, or touch, the base to which he is being replaced as a pinch runner.  
• A courtesy runner cannot be replaced by another courtesy runner except for injury causing permanent removal of the original courtesy runner from the game.  

 

ATTACHMENT 1

TIMBER RIDGE Folding Double Decker Wagon, Heavy Duty Collapsible Wagon Cart with 54″ Lower Decker, All-Terrain Big Wheels for Camping, Sports, Shopping, Garden and Beach, Support Up to 225 lbs, Brown

Cost: $169.99

•

Product Dimensions	54″D x 18.5″W x 34.5″H
Brand	TIMBER RIDGE
Material	Alloy Steel
Color	Brown
Special Feature	Easy To Use,Large Capacity,Sturdy

About this item

• Extra Long Double Decker: Compare with normal wagon, this double decker wagon is featured with extended lower shelf, 54 inch in total, perfect for transporting longer oversized items that don’t fit inside the wagon.

• Large Capacity to Carry: Constructed with 20mm*10mm sturdy steel pipes, our collapsible wagon cart ensures the large loading capacity, support up to 225 lbs; and open size is 54″L x 18 1/2″W x 34 1/2″H (with extended shelf), with plenty of space to hold stuffs.

• All-terrain 8″ diameter Wheels: Folding wagon with 8″ diameter all-terrain wheels move smoothly in any occasions, like fishing, camping, shopping, and gardening; 360° rotating front wheels and enable this beach wagon to maneuver easily.

• Compact and Easy to Use: No assembly required with a quick and easy set up in seconds by pushing the bottom; this utility wagon collapsible folds compactly, with folded size 15″L x 7″W x 35.5″H, and it can be stored easily in your trunk, garage, or closet, ensuring easy transport.

• Manufacturer’s Warranty: All TIMBER RIDGE products come with a 1-year manufacturer’s warranty for quality defects so you can purchase with confidence. If any problem, please feel free to contact us.

 

ATTACHMENT 2

$45/dozen

$??/dozen